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Collin Moshman is the author of "Sit 'n Go Strategy" and is a lead sng coach at Stoxpoker. He was gracious enough to do this interview for Cardschat. A special thanks to him - and to all of the members who submitted questions. Hope you enjoy the interview!After making some small talk about our beloved dogs - Collin's Wilbur and my Dakota and Amber - we moved into the sng discussion:
Cardschat - Everyone says that high stakes sng's come with a great deal of variance. At what point do you start to see the variance rapidly increase?
Collin - The biggest thing that affects variance in terms of the buy-in you're playing is the structure. So for instance, double or nothings are going to have the lowest variance in a buy-in and if you manage to find winner takes all sng's they would have the highest variance. When you go up in stakes it's the same thing with anything you are playing - cash, MTT's, Sng's - your profit - if you are a good player - is going to increase but your swings are going to be a lot higher too.
Cardschat - Would you suggest that a beginning player start out playing sng's or is some other form of poker a better place to start?
Collin - I think that if you are just starting off sng's are pretty good because people talk about them as a "solved" game, but they are not really a solved game. They are more mechanical in some aspects. They have you focus a little more on the pre-flop and there's some more rules, so I think that it's an easier thing to get started with than something like a deep-stack nlhe cash game.
Cardschat - There are so many sng structures to choose from - which do you think offer the best value? For example you can play a 10 man w/5 paid at bodog, Prima has a 5 man w/ 3 paid, then there are the standard 9-man with 3 paid, etc. Does it really matter which you play?
Collin - That is a good question. There are a few factors - one is the rake - so lower rake offers better value. Another is the level of competition - the softer the competition and the fewer regs then obviously you are going to be able to do a lot better. The last thing is what you like to play and the variance. For instance the Bodog ones with 5 paid - well half the field is paid and you are going to have a lot fewer swings than in a 9 person where 3 are paid.
Cardschat - We often hear that turbo sng's are "luckfests" that require less skill than a game with standard levels. What's your opinion on this and do you recommend turbos?
Collin - I wouldn't really say they are luckfests. The faster the competition the more you are going to have to have some hands hold up. If there are 1 minute blind levels then it will pretty much instantly become a shove-fold game. The advantage to turbos is that you can cram more in per hour - but your return is going to be less per game, so it depends on what your goals are.
Cardschat - Howard Lederer has always suggested playing the 18-man sng's over the 9 man. Do you agree with that?
Collin - No - I don't know if he has a good reason for saying that or not, but I don't think there's any inherent reason why an 18-man would be better.
Cardschat - For somebody who also plays MTT's or is switching from MTT's to sng's - do you think they need to become proficient at 9-man sng's before moving up to 18, 27, 45, etc.?
Collin - Probably. The 9-person sng's tend to be a good place to start, but you don't necessarily have to. The important thing is that you know how to adjust, and in particular you usually want to be looser in the multi-table sng's because a fewer percent of the field is paid and as a result survival becomes less important and accumulation becomes more important.
Cardschat - Do you think it is sensible to play a mix of different size sng's at the same time?
Collin - You can definitely do that because you can find the softest ones and you can play a ton of tables that way if that is what you are looking to do. The only thing is you have got to keep track of which ones are which. If you are playing 20 tables and they are cascading and a table pops up and everyone has 1500 chips and you have 8 other tables that need action, it's gonna be tough to always make sure that you know whether it's the 9-man or the 180-man - and that is important.
Cardschat - What do you think of the many sng variants that have been popping up on poker sites recently, such as the double or nothing sng's on pokerstars and Full Tilt and the matrix sng's on Full Tilt?
Collin - I have played about a half a dozen double or nothings on Pokerstars and to be honest I find them really boring. (lol) But I think that if you are looking for games with really low variance they offer that, and if the fields are soft I think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing them. They are just not exactly my favorite. The matrix games are okay - the only problem with the matrix games is that a single game is going to require you to have 4 tables up so they are going to be really hard to profitably grind.
Cardschat - A lot of the winning MTT players will also play the 45 player sng's as their "bread and butter" game as the fields still seem relatively soft and there's a decent edge to be gained in them. What are your thoughts on the 45's?
Collin - The 45's are okay. If you are going to play the 45's you've got to adjust. On Pokerstars 7 of 45 are paid, on Full Tilt it's 6 of 45, so you do have to be tighter compared to a 180 man or a 90 man with 10% paid. But if the fields are soft then I definitely think they are good games.
Cardschat - Any general thoughts on the sng's in the non-holdem games? Do you ever play any of those?
Collin - In HU I sometimes do. When it comes to 6-max or 9 man you will definitely see some Omaha games fill up. In Stoxpoker we had a great video recently for PL Omaha hi-lo sng's and those will fill. Even on $300 occasionally on Full Tilt you will see those run. But if you are talking about Horse, Badugi and a lot of those games - those won't fill much beyond $10 so they would be harder to grind.
Cardschat - Do you prefer to play online or live?
Collin - Online. I will usually go to Vegas during the wsop, not necessarily for the Main Event. I did play that a couple of years ago but this year played one of the events leading up to it. I do play live but not nearly as often as online.
Cardschat -Given that most serious sng players know about ICM and it's applications in mid-late game play, do you see the benefit in adopting a method different to the "uber-tight" norm that most sng regulars adopt in the early low blinds game?
Collin - What is ICM? (question posed in a very serious tone of voice as if he doesn't know)
Cardschat - (dakota squirms in her chair and nervously repeats "What is ICM??")
Collin - (Collin laughs cause he knows he just pulled a fast one on dakota lol) We had a video on Stox with pzhon talking about loosening up early and there are definitely some opportunities. ICM tells you that you should play tighter compared to if you just want to maximize every chip edge. But if you are at a table full of other people who are really good then you can play looser and still have enough of an edge to show a profit that way. So there is some room to play around a little bit during low blinds. During high blinds you are pretty much always going to be looking to move in a lot, to shove a lot and be fairly aggressive.
Cardschat -Do sng's and massively multi-tabling them profitably involve someone being exceptional at math and multi-tasking? Could the average Joe Blow poker player do it?
Collin - No, you don't have to be exceptional in math. You've got to feel kind of comfortable with numbers when you add software like sngwizard and for pot odds. Multi-tasking - yea, if you want to play a ton of tables you have got to be decent at multi-tasking. But I would say that if you are not the type of person who can play 100 tables then don't worry about it.
Cardschat - If there is 1 skill you would stress an up and comer sng player to possess what would that be?
Collin - In sng's you are going to have a ton of flips, you are going to go up and down a lot, so it just might be the stability and feeling comfortable with the swings, knowing that if you are playing well then in the long run you are going to do well.
Cardschat - Given that each mid-high stakes sng on average probably only contains 1 or 2 players who don't know near-perfect ICM strategy, the fact that it's seldom you come across a total fish and that it's inherently more difficult to table select in sng's as opposed to cash games, is it really possible to turn a sustainable profit in these games?
Collin - Well - I do disagree with every single one of those assumptions, but given that - I would say yes.
Cardschat - True or False - Any intelligent computer-literate person, whether they have past poker experience or not, could be trained within the period of 2 weeks to play 12 or more tables of low-stakes sng's (say $20) and turn a consistent profit.
Collin - I think it depends a lot on that training. If their life depended on it - yes, as a casual thing - no.
Cardschat - There's an article where you discuss staking players and your selection process for choosing them. Why would winning players want/need you for staking?
Collin - Oh there are many reasons. One is that everybody has to withdraw money at times - things will come up and they will need to take all of their money off the site then will need staking to play. Another is that I am willing to move players up quickly. Maybe they have the roll to play $6 sng's but I will offer to move them up quickly to $38's. They will make more money backed at $38's than they would un-backed at the $6's and will gain rakeback and FPP's at a much quicker rate. Also to save themselves from the swings - there a lot of reasons like that.
Cardschat - If their issues are bankroll management issues do you take that into consideration when selecting people you will stake?
Collin - It's pretty clear - the outline in the agreement what they can and can not play. So if they are trustworthy and they say they are going to only play up to a certain level - then I haven't had too much of a problem with that so it's okay.
Cardschat - I was going to ask you who won the bet you made with Katie that you could teach her to play poker better than she could teach you to sing. However after watching a couple of videos you have made with her I think it is quite obvious that you won that bet.
Collin - Yea - she has become a fine player. You know she taught me some great things with singing. It would sound terrible if I would sing Happy Birthday in the past and now - I have learned a little. But she definitely won the bet. (he means she plays poker better than he sings lol)
Cardschat - We need some audio proof that she lost the bet so now you get to break out in song.
Collin - proceeds to start singing "Edelweiss, Edelweiss..."
Cardschat - (dakota realizes she will now have to purchase Pamela before the free trial expires or she will lose the only recording in existance of Collin Moshman singing "Edelweiss.") - (and no I am not publishing the audio version of this interview Dorkus lol.)
Cardschat - Is it harder to teach someone who is a friend or a relative in person than to teach an eager online person?
Collin - Teaching in person tends to be easier whether it's somebody you know or you don't know just because communication is easier. But either way it's got to be somebody who is willing to accept what you are telling them. That is pretty much the most important thing in teaching somebody.
Cardschat - When you first started playing poker what did you originally play and how did you progress to sng's?
Collin - The very first thing I played was cash games, in particular .10/.25 cash games. With sng's - it just seemed like a cool thing to try, like $5 sng's. Back then if you were just really tight - and for whatever reason I was just naturally quite tight -you would beat the games. I was beating them and wasn't really doing much in low-stakes cash. Like I have mentioned in a couple of other places - I love going back now to those .10/.25 games and just being a total idiot, betting ridiculous amounts like $5 open raises and stuff. I still have fond memories of those games but for the most part I have stuck largely with sng's for most of my poker career.
Cardschat - Can you pinpoint the moment when you actually thought "Yes, I am a professional online poker player?"
Collin - Well I probably thought that earlier than I should have because I was moving up with really poor bankroll management guidelines. Like I would have 10 buy-ins for the next level and I would just start playing that. When I had a roll of $1k I was playing $100's and I thought that was something I could do when in fact it was way too early to be thinking that. But certainly by about mid or late 2004 it was definitely something I was doing for my income.
Cardschat - What are your experiences interacting with other StoxPoker coaches?
Collin - I like all of the guys. I tend to communicate more often on a daily basis with the other sng guys, but there's no question any time I look at the other videos I am very impressed with what they have to offer.
Cardschat - "vandweller" of deucescracked states in one of his videos that he spoke with you about your book and that you agreed that you might have over-emphasized punishing limpers. Is that so?
Collin - Vandweller and I are good friends and we talk a lot. Did I say that? (lol) It depends a lot on how the games are. Since I wrote that the games have evolved a little. I would say that you don't want to be attacking limpers with super weak hands, but for the most part guys who limp a lot - particularly at high blinds - are going to be a pretty big source of your profit.
Cardschat - This leads into the next question. Your book has been out for a while now - are there any major changes you would make to it now?
Collin - Yea - probably the change I would make the most is that I do agree now that there are exceptions to shoving junk in early position. (with a stack of 3bb or less). I was totally gung-ho when I wrote that on never letting yourself get blinded out. Since I wrote that either as a result of me writing it or for whatever reason that became a much more common move and you saw a lot of regs shoving really weak hands in early position. Now those moves tend to get less respect so I would say that if you have a junk hand in early position and particularly if you have a very loose aggressive reputation and you have been shoving a lot then it is sometimes correct to take the blind and accept that you have been blinded out.
Cardschat - Why did you choose to write books on sng's and tournament HU? Was it because you consider them to be your strongest games or was it because you didn't think there was enough in the way of competent literature available on them?
Collin - Well those are definitely the only games that I'd really be qualified to write anything book length on so that is part of it. I'm not gonna write a book on 6-max PLO lol. There wasn't another book out on either of those topics and I saw an opportunity. I naturally like to write and wrote a bunch of stuff - it helps me organize my thoughts. It turned into a book length project and I just kind of went with it.
Cardschat - Have you considered writing another book - for example maybe on multi-table sng's?
Collin - No, probably not on multi-table sng's. MTT books discuss that. I would say for somebody who is going to play multi-table sng's they would check out my "Sit 'n Go Strategies" and then also the other good MTT books like the Harrington books and the Pearljammer book is another really good one. But right now -yea I am actually working on another book with Douglas Zare and it's on the math of holdem.
Cardschat - (dakota can barely hide her excitement...) "Oh - I might have to skip that one Collin lol."
Collin - (good natured laugh inserted) The thing about it is there's only one other book out like that which is "The Math of Poker" and it is a super complicated. A lot of people own it but very few people actually get through it. The idea behind this book is we want to make it absolutely as accessible as possible. There are a ton of hand examples. It doesn't focus on the theory so much as just practically speaking on how to use math to improve your game.
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